And I don't think that a manual was consulted more than once. So, all of my companies are project companies; they only make money if my projects are executed and are successful. That'sthose are the best. It's a temple. I mean, everyone who came to visit me said, "Welcome to old lady land.". That's like a little bit of sleuthing, which I enjoy. So when I went to see Anthony and said, you know, "I would do this if you are available and you want to do it with me," and he said, "Well, ironically enough, they just told me that I'm on gardening leave." I mean, I would certainly say that having a gallery creates an inherent conflict of interest that I have to think carefully about. So I think back then it was much more about a buying strategy, and, you know, I think now I would say, Be very cautious and very slow, because now the market is created to separate you from your money and, JUDITH RICHARDS: And this applies to specifically Italian Baroque or any of the areas you've, CLIFFORD SCHORER: generally speaking, what's happened is the auction market, which used to be a wholesaler's market, has become a mass market, and as such, the marketing techniques employed have become mass-market marketing techniques. In my mind, I have a totally different collection, which is that I had unlimited funds for 25 years, and I selectively purchased the 19 works that came through the marketplace that I should have purchased. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because they seemed cheap? So, you know, they were generally illustrated. [00:10:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Are there any art historians who are thinking about writing. And so he gave me this Hefty bag and he told me to sort it. And I had learned four or five other programming languages and shown proficiency in them, just because I knew that they'd be useful. You know, it's ait's a story of ruination. CLIFFORD SCHORER: so, there weren't purpose-specific stamp and coin auctions in Boston, really. But it hammered down; I lost it, you know, and thought no more of it. But I'm pleased that I was lucky enough to be at the right moment in history, where the relative scholarship might have been weaker than it could otherwise have been, which would allow me to find a rather large gap in the fence through which I could walk, if you see how careful I'm trying to be. No, no. JUDITH RICHARDS: And his work came to your attention how? You know, it was wonderful. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you talk to him about collecting at all? Washington, DC 20001, 300 Park Avenue South Suite 300 And now I think there's a very good process in place. The interview was conducted by Judith Olch Richards forthe Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, and took place at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, NY. I'mI went to the MFA, you know, maybe a year and a half ago, and I have a major picture on view in their Koch Gallery. CLIFFORD SCHORER: We packed up everything to go down there. I rememberI remember in those days the things that I brought on Pan Amoh, my God. second chance body armor level 3a; notevil search engine. And so, yes, there are those amazing, you know, random fate intersections, but they're notthey're certainly not something that happen often enough to warrant, you know, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Five years later, I might find a, you know, Salvator Rosa figure, or a print. No, I neverI mean, I alwaysI mean, the problem is I'm a jack-of-all-trades and a master of absolutely nothing. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you encountered any of those with the works you've acquired? And I found it; it was an ambassadorial gift to the Spanish ambassador, and found the exact painting and everything. And so the National Gallery has our historic stock books and archive. But I didn't buy it with much of a focus on the painting itself. Winslow Homer was a landscape artist. And, you know, I've watched her career rise. They will charge the buyer 20 to 25 percent." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Winslow Homer. [Laughs.]. More from This Artist Similar Designs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: This sort of opens the whole question of the relationship between collectors and institutions and their collections and how much of a collectionit happens more in contemporary art, but issues arise. And it was alsoit was an attractive city to me because of the 19th-century architecture. The Louvre, when it was easy to go in and easy to come out. They have also lived in Stamford, CT and New York, NY. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, an earthly attribute. We've been using their fabrics as our wall coverings in our booths, and, you know, amazing. Available in a range of colours and styles for men, women, and everyone. I mean, my rooms were very dark. JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? I would think that you did have a lust for the object, with all the objects you've accumulated. I had probably 65 of them on walls, you know, with these plate holders and, you know, little arrays. So if Anthony says, you know, "We've got this great work"if he came to me tomorrow and said, "I've got this masterpiece by Rubens that we can buy," it would break my heart, but I would understand that, you know, despite that being a lifelong goal is to have that picture, I understand that that's going to have to be offered through the gallery, and that I'm going to have to be hands-off, which is why it's best just to simply pause in the collecting. And since I'm, you know. So there came moments when I would be flush with cash because I did something, you know, reasonably successful, and then I would take all that money and go just sink it faster than, you knowprudently, but I would sink it. I mean, paleontology, you have to understand, is the rarity of those objects, compared to the paintings we're talking about. Were you in a kind of museum? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, we have to pick our battles carefully. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: And that went into your endowment? So, I mean, signature works: Saint Cecilia by Waterhouse, Rossetti's Proserpine, The Heart of the Rose by Burne-Jones. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds like it was athe attraction to you was partly the art and the visual experience, and the business history. I said, "You've got a great collection here." JUDITH RICHARDS: You're serving as your own contractor? So, I think18, 19, 20, in that area, I spent 26 weeks a year outside the United States. He lived a fascinating life; working as a commercial illustrator, an artist-correspondent for the Civil War, being published on commemorative stamps and achieving financial success as a fine artist. And her maiden name was Mildred Wolfgang. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did he come before World War I? In 1859 he moved to New York to be closer to the publishers that commissioned his illustrations and to pursue his ambitions as a painter. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, I've alwaysI don't know. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're keeping just the gallery in London. Have you thought about that issue, debated it, considered where you stand on it? We had a Bill Viola exhibition of his martyrdom series [Martyrs: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, 2014] that he made for St. Paul's, CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was at TEFAF, the first time, CLIFFORD SCHORER: first TEFAF in Maastricht. So several years later he passed away, and apparently they hadn't yet sold the Procaccini. Located in the Donald W. Reynolds Center for American Art and Portraiture (8th and F Streets NW), Size: 5 sound files (3 hr., 57 min.) It was very early. Winslow Homer was an American painter whose works in the domain of realism, especially those on the sea, are considered some of the most influential paintings of the late 19th century. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But, you know, I guess with minor things, you know, with less important artwork, it is what it is. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Maybe, maybe, I don't know. Anthony takes charge of all the art questions involved with that, and he will then give me some yeoman's work to go and, you know, "Find this; find that," you know, "Keep your eyes open for this, that, and the other thing. JUDITH RICHARDS: Wasare those kinds of panels very useful to you as a collector, let's say, if you were in the audience? Was it something you had been looking for as an opportunity? I livedmy youth was split between Brooklyn Heights, Massapequa, Long Island, and Martha's Vineyard, with probably more time on Martha's Vineyard than anywhere else, where my aunt livedmy great-aunt, actually. Joan Cusack, actress. Clifford Schorer is the Co-Founder & Director at Greenwich Energy Solutions. I was followed by a security guardthe wholejust followed around. [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: I went to TEFAF. And I'm very excited, because Procaccini will finally get a major, monographic book. I'm done. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because there's just crates and crates and crates. So, you know, I think that's why I say it's a hobby you can take to your tomb. You had to reallythey had to see you a lot before they would talk to you. I would saysometimes I still go over to the Natural History Museum just to poke around. So I guess there were 300 Corporators, and I forget, but it wasI had one term as Corporator, and then I was on the board, and then I was president. It's got to be more than 16 years ago because I've been on the roster there for 16 years, so maybe 20 years ago. So, I lost it. [Affirmative.]. And then I moved to Boston directly. You know, you can only do so much of it; otherwise, you have a saccharine high. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I can just give a recent example. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had access to, you know, a virtual warehouse full of them. I mean, this year, there might be two and next year there might be none. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, again, that's a collecting area that was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915. But I was definitely a museum-goer. JUDITH RICHARDS: That would mean three or four years? In A Fishergirl Baiting Lines (1881) a young fishlass is shown baiting . I mean, it was, you know, sort ofand I think the problem was that he didn't have a lot ofnot even art enthusiasts; they just didn't havethey didn't have the depth of art knowledge they needed on the board at that particular moment. [Affirmative.] [00:46:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Gallery exhibition, or that take the gallery in ayou know, in the direction that Anthony wants us to steer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. So, sure, I read, you know, whatever I could find. We started talking at five o'clock at TEFAF; we finished the next morning at 9 a.m. As they tend to do. And she got tired [00:20:02]. So, you know, I did that kind of loop aesthetically, where I went from the filigree to the shadow. Another gallery, a different gallery? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, if I fall off a bridge in the next few months, everything goes to the various museums. So there wasn't any collecting going on at that point. I mean, I love George. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There were a billion people in 1900. JUDITH RICHARDS: Or acquire specifically in conversation with a museum curator for the institution. CLIFFORD SCHORER: He stayed with my mother. So that made it, you know [00:06:00]. Race, War, and Winslow Homer The artist's experiences in the Civil War and after helped him transcend stereotypes in portraying Black experience. He said, "Let's do a Lotte Laserstein show." JUDITH RICHARDS: people educating you in some way about the field? It is possible to buy decent things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I liked Boston, I felt that it, CLIFFORD SCHORER: it's a good city. I think that's fantastic. And I came back in a year, diligently, with the little glassine pouches that he gave me and all sorted. They didn't understand what the crucifixion scene was on some of these plates. JUDITH RICHARDS: in an understood way to further this. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, why does this woman look like a skeleton? It was about [00:52:00]. previous 1 2 next sort by previous 1 2 next * Note: these are all the books on Goodreads for this author. Clifford J. Schorer, Producer: Plutonium Baby. It's more like I'll find a print after a painting. So, yeah. So, no. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you're collecting Italianroughly Italian Baroque; that's around 1600 to 17how do you define it? I wrote a response saying it wouldn't fit in my three-family house in Boston, and I'm going to put it on public display. So, yes, there's a plaque to my grandfather. You know, it clouds my view of the artwork. So there were, you know, four or five sales a year. Like, the Ladies' Club would go, and she would bring me on the bus. And I think if you're focused enough to stay on the object, you know, to think at core about the transaction with your object and not listen to all the other noise and hype and marketing and, you know, all of that, and if you can learn as much as you can about that one object you're interested in, if you lose this one, so be it, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But you know, Chesterfield is a certain type of geo-politic. I would. You could buy things in Europe and sort of do your best to get them home. And, you know, if I think about that in relative terms, you know, the Medici Cycle by Rubens is not as large as that. So [00:30:04]. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: Going back to putting your hat on as a collector, what would you sayif this is relevant to youis the most important piece of advice that you received about collecting, and, in the same sense, a piece of advice you would give someone who was starting out? If we rely upon the aesthetic of our art and say, Here it is. JUDITH RICHARDS: You talked about "everything." And the Best family, the family that owned Best Products. So, you know, that's why it's useful to have, you know, after you've made the emotional decision to handle something, to have a bit of a business meeting. They'reyou know, they're interesting folks to read about. But I mean, as you became, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no. You know, let's put it in numbers: $10,000 to $250,000. JUDITH RICHARDS: Just that it's private. [00:34:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes, every day. So, CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Spain, in Madrid. Richard Davis, jazz-bassist, recording artist, professor/educator at University of Wisconsin-Madison. They werethey wereI mean, in France, of course. CLIFFORD SCHORER: If I found a rational market again and if I found great things, I would be right back to it. So I go in there, find thisthere's this little Plexiglas box, and inside this Plexiglas box is the most breathtaking bronze I have ever seen. JUDITH RICHARDS: And what was Ruth's last name? JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Having that expand? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, did I read articles? And I said, Oh, this is obvious what's happening. It was just crazy. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Putting aside in storage happened organically, because by the time I was three years into my house, I had more than I could use in my house. So. He had eyelashes of copper. So, I mean, he wasby the latter point of that, his eyesight was failing, and you know, the collecting was something he sat and pretended to do. We drove my van, actually. So a couple months go by, and I get this photo, and I open it up, and it's really wonderful. That book should be out very soon, actually. And I was just, you know, I was a rebel. So, you know, we met, we discussed it, and it was far more complex than I thought it would be. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the Museum of Fine Arts? So, in other words, you know, the spread between buy-sell was relatively high, because the dealer had found them in a very strategic way, you know, from private collections that they investigated or, you know, things like that. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you start to spend more time in New York, or that's auction? So, JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I'm not that interested. And now, it's a city of, you know, 100,000 Ph.D.s, who all have good income, but they don't support institutions. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And easy to walk around, and easy to spend three days there, you know. Eight years later, have it end up on the auction market, have it sell and not be paid, and then come back again. Clifford passed away on month day 1984, at age 67 at death place, North Carolina. It's [Nancy Ward] Neilson, Ms. Neilson. And, you know, so I finally acquiesced. what percentage of baby boomers are millionaires post oak hotel sunday brunch gator patch vs gator pave white sands footprints science. I want to talk to them. Do you have a year that you, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I kind of had a hard stop at 1650 in Rome, but in Naples, I took it right to 1680. So, yes. And by the time I was born, he was deceased and the family was bankrupt. Without synthetic fertilizers, it's impossible to feed the human race. [00:58:12], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Monday-Friday, excluding Federal holidays, by appointment. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And those worked out very well, because what I brought to the table, which I think was different from other investors they had worked with, was that I also brought very strong opinions. Just feeling and looking at the objects, and. So, I have these big buildings filled with storage, and a few years ago it got out of hand, you know, when it topped over a million square feet of storage. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do they focusexcuse my ignorance. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, absolutely. And that's great. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Islip, I think. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So it was sort ofyou know, it was sort of an early-days discussion. So all of that was interesting, and there was no need there to say, Okay, you know, from the Nanking Cargo-type of plate, there are 15 different floral varieties. But the problem is, New England is dry as a bone in the winter, so you have, you know, you have extremes, and I think the differenceif you kept a painting in England for 350 years, if you kept the painting in New England for 35 years, I bet it would have far more wear and tear in New England. [00:56:00]. Now that decorators are not putting bad Old Masters in the living rooms of every nouveau riche house, that's not floating anymore. I mean, I'm very social. Or not. Were there collectors you were reading about or you met? JUDITH RICHARDS: But timewise, was that the beginning of your starting to explore that area? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: "We know he dropped out after two and a half years, but you want this guy." As most 25-year-old men marched off to war in 1861, artist Winslow Homer took a . JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] I wanted to have a three-day ceratopsian symposium, which they did a wonderful job of. [00:54:00]. And my rooms were, you know, burgundy, and you know, very, very deep colors. I mean, to me, the Met is visiting. And we've obviously done a lot of work on our Pre-Raphaelite exhibition, which was kind of a protractedwe did, basically, a two-year Pre-Raphaelite fiesta, with lots of publications. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wouldn'tI would probably never acquire another gallery, because that wouldI mean, I think I would probably be more of a financial investor in other art businesses, potentially service businesses. We went to the apartment, and I bought the painting, and at the same time, the familythis was from one of the largest commissions of the 17th century, and the last two paintings were still in the hands of a man whose name was the same as the man who signed the commissioning documents 400 years before. Listing of the Day Location: Provincetown, MassachusettsPrice: $3.399 million This starkly modern and dramatic home was built in 2013 as a guesthouse to an adjacent flat-roofed, glass . I mean, I think that right nowso what we did in the interim is, we did this portraiture show which brought in, CLIFFORD SCHORER: It brought in Kehinde Wiley, Lucien Freud, and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, otheryou know, Kehinde Wiley's. Payntars are Dutch, yeah. My fathermy grandfather was Clifford Schorer Sr., and his wife was Mildred. It was about 200 pounds. Winslow Homer (1836-1910) was an American painter who is widely considered one of the greatest American painters of the 19th century. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that's, you knowand not even scholars, just, you know, let people enjoy them for what they are. And that's reallythat was more of, you know, expanding the things that I could do. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you werewhen you were talking about Amsterdam and Antwerp, I was thinking about the fact that your mother was originally of Dutch. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Olch Richards interviewing Clifford J. Schorer III, on June 6, 2018, at the Archives of American Art offices in New York City. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Region, meaning New England? But, yes, I mean, I think having a high-end warehouse where, you knowI would like to be the service provider in that equation and not the gallerist, because, to me, it'sno matter what you do, it's a clinical experience. So it was at that time, the seeds were planted to grow that institution visitation to 200,000, and that's happened. [00:42:05]. And I think her contribution to the house was some amazing curtains, which cost me a fortune. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I just meet people and just, you know, wander around with them. [Laughs. JUDITH RICHARDS: and what it stood for. CLIFFORD SCHORER: See, I don't want to seem like. And old man Lewis and I had a few passing conversations in the hallway of his building. I've spoken to Jon a few times. I mean, I'm still waiting for the great Quentin Matsys show. How has it evolved? I stopped dead in my tracks, and I stared at it, and my partner was like, "Oh!". And Anna especially, too, on the aesthetic, of creating a new aesthetic that people do not any longer associate with the old aesthetic. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. It was Naples, [Jusepe de] Ribera, [Luca] Giordano at theyou know, Giordano at the beginning; Ribera towards thetowards the middle. And I would buy all kinds of crazy things. We do TEFAF New York, TEFAF Maastricht, Masterpiece. JUDITH RICHARDS: So what were some of the early key purchases, and how did theywhy were they goals then and, JUDITH RICHARDS: how did they appear? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. Richard Dauenhauer, poet. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. [They laugh. Shop high-quality unique Clifford Schorer Winslow Homer T-Shirts designed and sold by independent artists. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of books. JUDITH RICHARDS: You had no idea when you went to Plovdiv that there would be such a. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did Skinner know what was happening? [00:22:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: You'll never be done. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay, rabbit-skin glue. When I was 13, we restored a Model T Ford from thefrom the, you know, bolts up. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They have their own studio. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Spent one year there. So it. I mean, it wasn't really, JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean give up all your other. So the short answer is that they may like to have it. Winslow Homer American Painter, Watercolorist and Printmaker Born: February 24, 1836 - Boston, Massachusetts Died: September 29, 1910 - Prout's Neck, Maine Movements and Styles: American Realism , Naturalism , The Sublime in Art , American Realism Winslow Homer Summary Accomplishments Important Art Influences and Connections Useful Resources Clifford lived on month day 1984, at address, North Carolina. We just put our heads down into the envelopes, and start looking at them and sorting them out. Those are the kinds of moments, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was Sotheby's New York. JUDITH RICHARDS: Besides your great-grandfatherwhen you were living in Boston and starting to be interested in these auctionswere there mentors? I collect Dutch still lifes; I collect," you know, fill in the blank. JUDITH RICHARDS: Now, I have some questions that sort of look to the future. That's respect. "A loaf of bread is more than 29? And I could actually get reasonably good examples. [00:28:03], JUDITH RICHARDS: Was your business background also important to them? So, no. So they used to have in their little museumsthey probablyonce, back in the '50s and during communism, they probably had these Thracian pieces, you know, that they found in the ground, and then the National Museum sort of pulled them all into the National Museum. And I mean, when Iaestheticsmy aesthetics are a little sensitive, so I do haveI did buy a Gropius house that Hans Wegner did the interior of. And I'm thinking, Who are these people? And they tended to be a little unstable. And Agnew's was one of the firms that simply refused to deal in what they called "refugee art." And I know them, and I know the pictures, and I won't say more than that. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you're going to thenot stamp and coin auctions, though? 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